The Strength & Resilience of the Human Body with Angel Trail

Full Transcript

Hello, it’s bill the knee pain guru, and welcome to the pain education podcast sponsored by The comella Foundation. Today, we have a very special guest, and it’s really exciting for me to have the first local guest local to me. So I’m kind of excited about this, this podcast reaches all around the world, and it’s exciting and we can help people on six continents, however, I have someone in my very own home town in weaverville, North Carolina, and I’d like to welcome today, angel trail. Welcome, Angel, thanks for having me. Oh, this is… It’s fun. I’ve really been looking forward to this interview. And we connected on an online network business networking group, and I reached out and I went and visited you, and what you were doing, I was just absolutely intrigued by how you help people, your story over the past year has been pretty amazing what you do with your business over the past year, and I just like for you to share, let’s start with your expertise, your background, how did you get involved in what you’re doing?

Well, I’m a physical therapist, and I was exposed to physical therapy actually by my grandmother who was a physical therapist, and so I would go to work with her and that’s how I learned about physical therapy to start with. And so then after college, I went and got my Masters in physical therapy, so physical therapists, they go to college and then they go to post-graduate school to get the masters or the doctorate. And where did you go to school? I went to UNC Chapel Hill. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Got it. And so, what ages were you doing your understudy with your grandmother, or you…

I was 9 and 10, I guess, and she was working in nursing homes and yeah, I just saw a lot of older people that needed help, and that was what appealed to me at the time, was just helping people, I just wanted to help. So I guess that’s always been something in me, I’ve been down to helping people…

Was there any instance in your life something that directed you to go to physical therapy school, was it a crisis or sometimes people’s paths were dictated by some sort of… Something that happened to them. Was it anything other than your grandmother?

Well, yeah, actually, I did have some back pain that I developed when I was doing martial arts, so I was big into Capoeira, which is a Brazilian martial art kind of dance, and I was training that really intensively during college, and I got some back pain and it didn’t go away, and I went to the doctor and chiropractor and physical therapy, and got an X-ray and an MRI and all that stuff, and basically I just note of it, answered like why I was having pain. And so I was just kind of living with this pain for a number of years, and I stopped doing martial arts, and so I guess part of going to physical therapy school was wanting to figure out why I had pain and what to do about it.

Now, when did the back pain happened in relationship to you going to college, was it happening during college… Was this… Something happened before.

The back pain developed during college when I was like 19 or 20, and then I had it all the way through parlay into physical therapy school for… I had it for at least five years.

Wow, okay. And how did the back pain get resolved, like what was the piece that you put together, just to simplify, I needed to strengthen my hips.

There was nothing structurally wrong with me, I just needed more… My hips needed to have more tolerance to the activities that I was wanting to do, so when I was doing my martial arts and stuff, it was just too much on my hip muscles and the trigger points and stuff, and my hip muscles were radiating pain out and also, my back was not being supported enough by my hips go, so when I strengthened up my hips… That took care of it.

Cool. Yeah. So let’s see. Physical therapy school. You graduated. What was your path after graduation.

So after graduation, I worked in an outpatient orthopedic clinic that was really busy. And so I got exposed to a lot of different things. And basically right out of school, I felt like I didn’t know anything. I didn’t know what I was doing was helping. It was like 20-50, if I was gonna be able to help somebody or not, people just turned out to be much different than textbooks, so the practice of physical therapy was a lot different than what I had learned in books and people… They didn’t go by what I had learned in the book, and I just felt really incompetent, really overwhelmed, it was in these outpatient orthopedic clinics, you will see a lot of patients per hour, so it was stressful. At first, when I got out of school.

I could imagine. And how long did you do that? What was the transformation beyond or the involvement of your work beyond that?

Yeah, so then… Well, then for family reasons, I had to move and I couldn’t find an outpatient orthopedic job where I was, and so I ended up working in nursing homes and home health for a while, and so it was a slower pace, and so I got to get used to… A lot of the things that are required of me as a physical therapist and at a slower pace, because when you work in nursing homes and in home health, it’s just one-on-one care for an hour at a time, so that was really nice for me to kind of slow down and just get my feet on the ground a little bit better, and then throughout the whole time, I just started taking a bunch of continuing education classes, just trying to learn more and more about like… Why couldn’t I help everybody? And what were more ways that I could help people, what was I missing? How could I be better and help more people, so I have taken a lot of extra classes over the years.

Any of those classes, I stick out to you more than others that helped give you insight?

Well, yeah, recently, I’ve really enjoyed the Institute of Clinical Excellence. I just really like their approach to the human body is for like the human body as a strong… A strong organism that responds well to load and focuses on active treatment versus, but also incorporating passive treatments, hands-on approach to help people with their pain, but then also a big focus on active treatments that help people manage their pain on their own and get stronger and be able to do the activities that they love. So I had taken a lot of classes that were more focused on passive treatments and how we as therapists were going to fix people by putting our hands on them, and also seeing people more like they’re fragile like, Oh, they shouldn’t be this way, they shouldn’t do this particular movement, they shouldn’t… People shouldn’t fit in this posture because they’re so fragile that those things can hurt them or permanently injure them, and so, yeah, the Institute of Clinical Excellence has more of a view that people are strong and resilient by nature, and so… I like that a lot.

Cool, can you share a little bit more on what would the passive therapy and an active therapy… Could you describe those a little bit more?

Yeah, so passive is where you’re gonna be laying on a table, like the client or the patient will be typically lying on a table and they’ll be having a practitioner do something to them, whether that might be releasing their muscles or putting them back in alignment or different… Things like that, passive treatments where the client or the patient doesn’t have to do anything, and then an active approach would be where the patient or the client was doing movements or exercises or activities that helped to heal their body and decrease their pain. And so they develop more control over how they feel, and they’re not relying on somebody else to fix them, and they’re also activating their natural processes that our body has of like, when you move a joint, you’re gonna lubricate that joint, you’re gonna increase the health of the joint, when you contract a muscle, same thing, you’re gonna increase the health of muscle and have decreased pain. So those are things that you can do for yourself. The active approach is…

Got it. Okay, it makes total sense. Could you… Where is your one working with a client, painful joint activity. Lubricate to joint. Totally there with you. Where is your… How do you find that balance between… ’cause sometimes activating the joint, moving the joint can actually cause more pain, and if you don’t move the painful joint, it’s not gonna get better, so where is that balance for you, how do you find that place in working with a client that is struggling with her needed disc in their back, frozen shoulder, something going out with their hips or their needs are you… How do you look at that? Where do you find that balance? Yeah.

So the first thing is the pain in the moment that we’re doing the particular activity, so if we’re moving a painful knee and the person’s pain is three to five out of 10 at the most, then that… So as long as it’s okay with them, ’cause different people have different tolerances to pain, so if the level of pain that they’re experiencing, if they’re okay with it in that moment, then it’s okay. That’s the first thing. And then as we’re doing that movement, how does the pain change, so does it get better as they continue the movement, that would be an indication that that’s a good movement to do like… Yeah, it started out guarding a little bit, but then as you did a few repetitions, it’s starting to get better, if the pain starts increasing as they’re doing the movement, then we’ll just continue that. It’s showing that that’s not a good movement to do because the pain is going up maybe above a five out of 10 or just to a level that the client isn’t okay with, if they’re not okay with it, then it’s just… It’s not okay. If it stays the same level and we’re working on some range of motion that we know that they need, if we can get the range of motion, the movement and the joint, then we can’t return it to normal, so if we are getting some good range of motion and the pain is staying the same and the patient is okay with it, then that’s Okay too, so that’s in the moment of doing the exercise, and then you’re gonna see how the person responds, Do they get sore the next day or later that day? If so, how much is it like…

Is it above a five out of 10, is it really like messing with their quality of life, then if so, we’ll probably dial it back a little bit the next time, or if they have a flare-up that lasts longer than 24 hours, then that’s a sign that we might dial it back a little bit the next time, but if their pain is okay for them and it resolves within 24 hours, then I would call that like a favorable response, and that means that the exercise that we did was okay and it’s gonna increase their tolerance, maybe their mobility, their string, whatever it is that we’re working on.

Okay, here’s a question. Working with clients. Yeah. What do you do with the client that’s like… I can take it. It’s been… They have almost like that. It’s okay that it’s like the badge of honor they’re wearing, like, I could really handle this pain, you could push it as much as you need to… How do you work with that kind of client?

Well, so I’ll just… Sometimes I’ll just, I’ll let them do their thing, or they’re just like, Oh, I should get it really hard, and then when they come back and see me and they’re terribly flared up, then I just draw their attention to that and I say No. ’cause you pushed it really hard, that’s why you had so much pain over the last few days, so I think that we need to take it… I think we need to take it easier and usually they’re on board with that, usually they’ve been really suffering for the last few days and they’re like, Yeah, you’re right, and they’ll listen to me and will be more conservative, but… Yeah, yeah, that is a thing, you have to slow some people down, but it’s like there’s the people that are really afraid of pain, and then the people that don’t wanna listen to it at all, and so try to get both of those extremes to come into more of a middle ground where they feel their pain, but they don’t get too afraid of it, they respect it, they listen to their bodies, but… Yeah, that’s.

Really good. I like how you said respecting it, respecting what’s going on with their body, and I think that’s important, and I absolutely see both of those extremes where people are either just self-refused to the health or they’re so terrified of feeling any sort of discomfort or anything in their body that they’re totally holding back. Yeah, which of course makes all their issues compound because the joints are getting lubricated like you were talking about before. Yeah, so the thing, the thread that we really wanted to emphasize, and this was the strength and resilience of the human body, that was the angle that we were really going to talk about today, and of course as it relates to pain, like how can we make the body, stronger and resilient. If it hurts. So what has been your experience in working with clients? How do you see this playing out with your typical client that comes to see you.

So when people come to see me, they’re often very afraid of movement, and they have ideas about themselves and their bodies that there… For example, my knee has arthritis and it’s just… I just don’t move it anymore, I’m just gonna wait till I get a knee replacement. It’s just, I don’t even worry about my name, that’s not even what I’m here for one. It’s done, it’s gone. Forget about it. So I work with people on those ideas that they have about their limitations and introducing other possibilities that maybe you actually can move your name… Let’s see what we can do with it. And so I’ll just start small with whatever they can do without paying or with very little discomfort, and more times than not, if you just start with something that’s comfortable, you can progress towards things that people thought that they wouldn’t be able to do before. Yeah, so I guess starting with things that are not painful, that are comfortable, and just starting at the beginning and then just gradually progressing more and more, whether that’s a need that stiff and just gradually increasing that range of motion where the person didn’t think that was possible.

And starting to contract the muscles around the knee and very basic ways make guys and metrics, and that turns into Active movements, and then that turns into sitting and standing from a chair, and that turns into a squat. When the person came in, they thought they’d never be able to squat again with their supposedly arthritic knee and fast-forward a few months and they can do those things.

They are full range.

Yeah, or they are much improved range or something like that and… Yeah, or the same thing happens with bending forward, people think they can’t, Oh, my back hurts, I can just never bend forward again, and we do the same process there starting with non-painful movements in the back and just anything that they can do comfortably and just progressing from there. And so people can bend over and lift heavy objects from the floor where they had this preconceived notion that they could… They’d never be able to do that.

I’d like to ask you a few questions more about someone who would be looking for a physical therapist to work with, you strike me as a very sensitive and caring person that isn’t moving people through on a conveyor belt, right? Unfortunately, the work that I do, I run across a lot of people who have had physical therapists and they are kind of running them through on a conveyor about it, it’s like, okay, well, we have the insurance codes that we need to build for this, and we’re supposed to do this for 10 minutes and this for 15 minutes, and we build it, and you go on your way, and a lot of times those people are still in pain. So there’s a lot of people out there suffering. You know this, I know this. And someone who is looking for a physical therapist like you, who cares, and that is truly looking for like, How can I work with this physical therapist to help me get better? How would someone find a person like you… Because if I look in dating myself, the phone book, or you know, you do a Google search and you have a bunch of physical therapy clinics, how would someone ask…

How would someone know that’s in pain because pain like… I can’t think, I just wanna get out of pain, so I wanna go to somebody… Yeah, but not all physical therapists who created equal… I wanna find somebody like you, I wanna find someone who cares about me that can help me on a pain… How would I do that when I’m in pain? What… Could you walk me through that? Possibly…

Well, you can Google physical therapists near you, and then from there, what I would say is just don’t go to any of the chains or corporations or hospital systems, because I’ve worked in those, and as a therapist, you just don’t have control over how much time you spend with people and all of the things that… The services that you can provide. So for example, I have my own business now because I couldn’t offer it. In that for-profit corporate system or looking for a privately owned practices is a good idea because there’s a reason why people have opened their own private… Yes, ACTH Rapist would have opened their own private practice, ’cause it’s not an easy thing to do it, there’s a reason that a physical therapist would be practicing on their own, and a lot of times it’s because of that they can’t operate in that one patient every 30 minutes system, to find somebody who’s in private practice and then just call and… For me, if somebody calls my practice, I talk to the person personally, so you’re not really gonna be talking to… A reception is like, if you call my office. So that’s great if you can actually talk to the physical therapist sometimes you can…

And then, yeah, maybe looking on the website and seeing what do they say about their values and the treatment that you’re gonna get there, do they say one-on-one care? And stuff like that.

I think this is a really great stuff, a Physical Therapist is in private practice, yeah, ask them if they have one-on-one care, see if you’re speaking directly with the therapist that you would be working with, check out their website for their core values or how they work with or treat their patients. Those are huge. I think that’s going to help people who are in pain, that… We’ll definitely put that in the show notes.

And the other thing is knowing that you have a choice, if you go to the doctor and your doctor gives you a prescription for this particular physical therapy place, you can take that prescription anywhere as the consumer, you have the choice of where you get physical therapy…

Got it. I like this, and I know this isn’t exactly what we say we’re gonna talk about, but I thought it would be super important as you were… I was thinking about this because people don’t know… I know there’s things where I’m looking for, let’s say a dentist, how do I know when dentist is better than another… They’re all dentists. So how can a person break it down, ’cause I think breaking it down into a baby step that they could digest, and I’m definitely going to put those in for the replay of this, so people can do that, have a checklist that they could go through, is this person a private practice. What do they say about the quarter value? That’s perfect, that’s great. So that was a slight detour, but let’s go back to about the strength and resilience of the human body and healing pain. So when you see a person, how do you… I would, based on our interaction are talking… You hold a higher vision for that patient and they are holding for themselves because they… On really sure what the possibility is, where do you see is the upper limit for a person that you’re helping…

Their healing potential.

I don’t set a limit for them, I just… Yeah, I don’t set a limit because I don’t think that we really know what the full potential of somebody is and people can surprise you, they can surprise themselves, so I just… My idea, I’m always trying to return people back to normal as close as they can get… There’s some exceptions to that with nerve damage or bones that healed in the wrong angle and stuff like that, but as far as… I’m trying to get people with minimal pain and doing the activities that they love that are meaningful for them.

Do you have any stories that you could share with us? Of course, no names. Yeah, no names, you share with you somebody that came in with knee replacement or they had bone-on-bone arthritis or they had herniated disc in their neck or back, would you share some stories of someone that came in… You worked with them, kinda give a timeframe and then what was there, what did they look like on the other side, how was it for him on the other side of us? Yeah.

Okay, sure. My time frames will probably be off, but give you a rough estimate.

give Or take five years.

Yeah, so one patient comes to mind that was an 80-year-old woman who had to go… She had to go to the emergency room because she had lost… Her leg was giving out on her because her stenosis was so bad in her back that it was starting to impinge on her nerves so that it was causing her leg to get weak and causing her to have severe pain in her leg, and she had to go to the emergency room for this and the doctor, the doctor there wanted her to have surgery immediately, and she didn’t have family with her at the time, so she didn’t wanna make a decision like that, and she just didn’t wanna get surgery, so even though the doctors were recommending that she said no to the surgery to whatever, open up the space where her nerve was coming out of her back and reduced the impingement on it, so I think they gave her probably some steroids to calm down the inflammation, and she ended up in the physical therapy clinic that I was working at for physical therapy after she got back a little bit of function in her leg, but when she came to see me, she had been previously, she was walking without a walker or anything prior to this incident.

It came on suddenly. And so when she came to see me in the clinic. Now, she was walking with a walker. She could barely put weight on that leg, she was in extreme pain, and a lot of what we hear in… A lot of what we hear is that when we have sinuses and when we have a pension, or there’s nothing we can do about it, that’s just bone pushing on here, and it’s just always gonna be like that, you gotta get surgery. But then, so we did, we started with exercises that relieved her, so opening up the spaces in the spine where the nerves pass through, stretched that would open that up and give the nerve more space and just some basic isometric muscle contractions, and using the walker to take pressure off of that side. And we did some dry needling too, so some… Like Janet is when you use acupuncture type needles, but with a different thought process for how to use them, so we did some dry needling for her king and… And.

I could just interrupt you there for a one, who’s listening that… Isn’t it familiar with dry needling? It’s not actually poking the skin… Is that correct? It’s.

The needles going into the body…

I did, I did not realize that. Please go ahead.

Yeah, it’s just like acupuncture, that you don’t go into the skin, but we don’t work on the antemedian and stuff, work on muscles and nerves as… Yeah, we did that, and with that, we were able to get that information and that came down, so that within four weeks, most of her pain was gone, she was able to start using a cane, and then it was a process from there of months of strengthening up. The muscles that had been effective, but the nerve irritation, when given the opportunity, calms down, it wasn’t like a permanent thing that she was gonna live with, it was something had gotten irritated and her back, and that irritation that inflammation had irritated the nerve to… And had affected the nerve, and when we calm that down, the nerve paying calmed down, and then we were able to strengthen the hip muscles and the back muscles, and over the course of months get her to the point where she was able to be pain-free, walking without a walker or cane or anything, she was back to normal.

Nice. So I always wondered about stenosis, that was one that was kind of a little bit of… I couldn’t quite my brain around that, but… Yeah, that’s great.

Yeah, stenosis is where it’s actually a normal process that happens to everybody as they get older, like the canals where the nerves come out of the spinal cord, they just start to narrow, it’s kind of a natural process of aging, but sometimes it can start to impinge on the nerves, but that’s not always problematic either, it’s really just when the area gets… One part of the spine maybe gets overloaded or irritated, and that’s when that irritation will start to cause pain in that area and potentially down the nerve. So if you took an X-ray of anybody’s back over the age of 60-70, you’re gonna be seeing stenosis and it’s not necessarily gonna cause any problems, just ’cause you have stenosis doesn’t mean you have to have… An oasis doesn’t mean that there’s nothing you can do about it, and you can even really… You’re paying without ever change, you’re never gonna change the stenosis, but you’re gonna change the pain.

Sure. Okay. Yeah, got it. Okay. No, it’s good. I’m learning. This is great, I like it. Okay, what do you see are the big pitfalls when clients come to see you, when patients come to see you, what are they doing that is… They’re getting in their own way.

And one of the main ones is being afraid of pain and stopping moving, so feeling pain and thinking that it means that something is damaged and thinking that they shouldn’t do anything, like if their knee is hurting, then thinking that their knee is damaged and that they just shouldn’t use it anymore, and that use is bad and damaging when really… Pain doesn’t always equal damage, pain is an alarm system in our body that just lets us know… I can let us know that there’s been damaged, but it might be letting us know that we’ve been putting increased pressure in the area, and that we need to be careful, it doesn’t always mean damage, and it’s not even always about tissue stress. Pain also happens because of life stress, because of beliefs, because of lack of sleep, emotions, all of those things affect pain, so yeah, we don’t need to be as fearful of paying as people are frequently, and we need to move our bodies even when they’re paying in the area and try to find ways that we can know that don’t increase our pain.

Sure, and this ties right back in to what you were talking about at the beginning, you know, judge in the pain level, you wanna have a range where you’re getting the range of motion, you’re moving the body, but it’s not causing more problems in the process that it’s not going above that. I believe you said a three to five-ish…

Yeah, that’s a guideline. That’s helpful for people.

Sure, and it’s going above a five or maybe it’s time to back off, when a person is backing off from that, what would you suggest they do in the back-off, ’cause sometimes the back-off could actually make the situation worse if they are backing off in a way, that’s productive.

Yeah, so finding other movements that the body can do, so if your knee hurts like Your knee hurts when you’re running, so walk for a while instead of running, if you like to work out, work out your upper body, your knee is hurting, so work out your upper body or… Yeah, just… And that’s a thing that I help people with, is finding movements, ’cause people don’t always know… They’re out of ideas. Don’t know what to do. So that’s one of the things is I help people find movements that they can do that are not aggravating, but if people have a movement vocabulary or they have some ideas about different movements they could do is just choosing the ones that don’t bother them for a while, and then also really important to look at your life from the big picture, like what’s going on, like Are you stressed about something, or have you had a big life change? Are you sleeping enough? Are you eating well? And because pain may not be just because of some kind of physical problem, it can be something that’s going on in your life too, so looking at that and assessing and trying to overall improve your life.

And is that… Where is the line for physical therapist in terms of suggesting things, ’cause I know there’s definitely… When we start talking about… I guess there’s different parameters with all different types of therapies, some are more comfortable going in the area of nutrition and supplementation, others are more like lifestyle change and things like that. Can you describe to me where is the parameter for a physical therapist or is that gonna depend on the training, what is…

So physical therapists is a direct access practitioner, so that means that we should be able to… For any person that comes to us, that we should be able to refer them out as appropriate to the appropriate person, we should be able to assess what’s going on with that person and to know if it’s within our scope of practice, and if not, then we’re referring out to mental health practitioner, nutrition is… But we can cover the basics, we can educate people about how all those lifestyle factors will play into their pin and just kind of ask them the basics of how are you eating… Are you drinking like soda all day, then that’s a interactive to say, that’s not good. So there’s some of the basics of nutrition, we make sure that that’s covered if it’s more complicated than we can refer them to a nutritionist, and then there’s some screens for mental health stuff or emotional stuff, if they have signs of depression or anxiety, we can refer them to somebody for that. But just educating them about how all those factors might play into their pain.

I just had this funny visual, I noticed Mr. Mr. Smith as I was moving your leg a mountain do. Fell out of your back pocket. Yeah, you may wanna put in your front pocket because it makes you sit bones or… At lifestyle changes, and this has been great. I’d like to share with everyone we had chatted about something for the listeners and the waters of this… Could you speak to that a little bit?

Yeah, so I have a video of instructing in some of the most common… For one of the most common things that I see that contributes to pain, especially back pain, that I wanna share with people and share how to change that, so I have a short video that you can share the link to that…

Awesome, we’re estate about that.

And I also have… Sorry.

No, you’re fine, go. Well.

I also wanted to say, Well, I have a new physical therapist on my in Waterville, and so to celebrate her arrival, were doing a day of free screens is like a free exam, and we can do that by Telehealth or in person, not anybody who was watching and would wanna take advantage of that. It is Friday, April 30th, and Saturday. May 1st. I don’t know if you’re gonna post this by then…

We will, yes. And in doing that, and this is something we haven’t talked about, but this is not gonna be a gotcha thing, it’s something that we were working on through the CMA Foundation for the pain education podcast, to be able to offer a way where those who are looking for support can go through the website, through the comella Foundation website to be able to access you schedule schedule times to work with you, it would be from the client’s perspective, the patient’s perspective, this would be donation to the website, and it would give you an opportunity to screen them help them, whatever. And then if they chose to become a patient, a client with you and work with you, they can do strictly over the internet and work with that. Well, so that’s something we were working on in the background, we haven’t yet divulged until I guess now, ’cause it’s been… This past week, we were talking about it, the team was talking about all that seawater, this… We will make sure you have all of the information, how we can get that set up to pass along people that you can help. So that would be very cool.

So we have the bonus, we’ll have the link that they can contact you directly and schedule a time to be able to set that up to have a consult with you and… Let me see what else we got here. Is there anything else… Is there a thread that I didn’t follow through enough in asking you today, is there anything else that’s kind of sticking out that you were like… Well, I wish Bill would have asked me about that and you have the floor. Whatever you would like.

Oh gosh, I don’t know. I can’t even remember now what we talked about. Okay, now, was there anything that you wanted to clean…

I was good. It didn’t just turn out. This was actually… I enjoyed the piece that we got out of the finding of physical therapist, I think it’s part… I think that’s gonna be awesome for people who… ’cause I talk to a lot of people and how physical therapy just puts me in pain, and I know that is like a blanket statement, but I don’t know how to find one that isn’t going to put them in pain, so I think those were… We had four steps, I think there were four solid steps in there that once again, I’ll put them in the show notes, that are real solid to help people wherever they’re at, if they’re in Paducah, Kentucky year, Spokane, Washington, or wherever they’re at. That they could find their own physical therapists that have similar values and caring and sensitivity that they’re bringing to the table that… It’s in their best interest. In everybody’s best interest. So I think a good… And we’re gonna have you on again and maybe in a couple of months, see how your practice is to… And you didn’t share about your business story… Yeah, you started your business like a year ago…

Yeah, I let… I started my business, I started building it like a little bit in 2019, but then I went full-time with my business in March of 2020, so… Right, right at the London endemic started. Yeah, I was like… Because my business was picking up and I was like, Okay, it’s the time to do it, and… Yeah, and then the pandemic hit, and then I was just…

I just wanna give you major props. ’cause it’s like the timing of all of that, right, when lock-downs are happening, you go to start your plan new business in III space to see people, and you’re a frigging rock star because you did in the past year… ’cause we’re in April of 2021, during a pandemic, when all of this lockdown and masks and all this other crazy stuff that’s going on there, you had to bring on people this year because you’re doing so well for people to think about that. That is pretty freaking awesome thing, so I just wanted to acknowledge that we didn’t cover that at the beginning, but… Yeah, that’s great. So whatever you’re doing, keep it up. ’cause the world needs more people like you doing what you’re doing, so… That’s fantastic, but we can check that in in a few months to see if there’s other… You’re gonna have after thoughts, after ward off of this to something else on some of their angle and share it with our listeners. And we’ll go from there, okay? Sounds awesome. Awesome. Well, angel, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me on.

Oh, you’re welcome. And so this is Bill Parravano, the knee pain guru, on behalf of the pain education podcast, sponsored by The comella Foundation. Thank you all for being here. Have a wonderful day. And we will see you on the next one.