Why Physical Pain ISN’T All In Your Head with Lloyd Robrecht

Full Transcript

0:00:04.5 S1: Hello, it’s Bill Parravano, the knee pain guru. Welcome to the Comella Foundation, where we look for different ways of exploring how to relieve… How to relieve pain. We’re gonna start that over. Units, build a knee pain guru and welcome to The Comella Foundation where we look for natural and holistic ways of relieving chronic pain. Today’s guest is actually a very good friend of my Lloyd rubric, and we were on a conversation one time talking about different ways pain manifests in the body, and I thought it would be a great opportunity to bring Loyd and his expertise onto the podcast to share with all of you in terms of how… Why physical pain isn’t… Isn’t all in your head? So welcome. Loyd, I’d like you to introduce yourself, please. Eye be here. Thank you for having me. Looking forward to our conversation. I don’t know, we just share your experience, like you work with clients as far as therapy type of session, so what is your experience, what brought you to that place of working in the industry?

0:01:31.9 S2: Well, I became very interested in psychology early on, I guess in college, and I think… And I half-jokingly tell people that I got interested in the psychology because I wanted to figure out the female mind set. Haven’t figured that one out yet. I don’t think anybody else has. So I’m not alone in that, but now I am very interested in psychology and why we do the things that we do, how do we think act and behave to be successful, and what are the roadblocks that we put up in our own ways to prevent us from that, and it’s been an interesting journey. Have learned so much and realize that I have only scratched the surface in human motivation and potential and the aspects of life that can prevent present challenges to us. But anyway, that’s kind of a summary.

0:02:38.2 S1: How long? How long? Goes college, gosh.

0:02:42.7 S2: I started working in a mental outfield in 1993, and have been pursuing that in many different ways ever since I’ve worked in outpatient psychiatric settings, inpatient hospital, and now a private therapist, her Ionia, and I am working with a wide variety of clients with a number of issues but my specialty is dealing with anxiety and trauma, and all the issues that surround that, what’s really interesting to me is… This is kind of sad in a way. The people that I see, regardless of their presentation, what they’re coming in for initially, it could be a marital issue, it could be a job satisfaction issue, I’m finding evidence of trauma in almost all of these cases, what they’re presenting for or what they see as the problem, is actually a result of behaviors that they’ve adapted or adopted and have become patterns for them related to injuries that they’ve suffered in the past, experiences that they’ve had, and their mode in their method of protecting themselves from those thoughts and feelings.

0:04:16.4 S1: So what is your official title? In your private practice, a.

0:04:21.4 S2: Licensed Clinical Social Worker, LCS, when I’m a clinical therapist. Gotta… Do You Want.

0:04:37.5 S1: To… Noa kherson, you know, to cut that part out.

0:04:46.7 S2: On… Be a lot to cut out. Be fine.

0:04:55.3 S1: So you’re seeing a lot of challenges and issues that the clients that you work with are a result of traumas and adaptations to those traumas that is showing up in their life, in their… Well, how they would function. Day-to-day.

0:05:14.4 S2: Yeah. I tell people that if we’re all operating at our wonderful optimum level and our nervous systems are all clean and calm, and let’s just say this line is zero, we get knocked up is in one sense by traumatic experiences, and let’s just say that zero jumps all the way up to a 10, we never really come back down to that zero baseline, we come back down to a 25 or something like that, and because of that excitation of the nervous system and being pushed more towards the sympathetic side and the nerve system, we develop hyper-vigilance, we’re looking for the next bad thing to happen, we’re always feeling a little bit keyed up and wired and go through life, have more experiences, and where we’re posting that 25 and something else happens, and it can be an acute trauma type thing that jacks us back up to a 90, but then we never come back down to that 25, we come back down to a four, or we could experience less acute, more chronic situation with the kid who’s bullied through all four years of high school. It’s a day in, day out. Some days are worse, some days are better, but this chronic stress intention level that a person experiences and they get elevated to a six and maybe after high school, they just come back down to a four, so we’re reactive rather than response…

0:06:57.9 S2: And that’s a whole another area right there, the activity versus responsiveness, but this tension pattern, this anxiety, this way of defending ourselves creates problems in our relationships and how we see the world, and some people cope with it in various ways, sometimes healthier than others, but alcohol addiction, is for other drugs are becoming more and more prevalent when you dig down deeper into the issues with those people and you find that there’s usually trauma there, people who just cannot make a relationship work. Why is that? Often it relates to issues that they’ve had in the past and their identity, their sense of self, and this is another thing that I say to a lot of clients is that it all seems to boil down to ego defense. And when I say ego, I don’t mean arrogance or inflated prideful-ness or anything like that, but rather just this identity, do and what we think we are, that’s our ego, that’s our sense of self. And when anything in the world comes into conflict with that, it takes a very healthy ego to be able to sit back and go, Okay, how does this work? Maybe I’m responsible for this.

0:08:31.8 S2: How do I fit into that? That’s not usually the response, we usually have a reaction which is very immediate to defend ourselves, and when we become defensive and we come counter and custody. That just elevates things.

0:08:48.8 S1: Sure, and you shared a lot. A trauma in and of itself. And trauma in and of itself is a lot. And what we’re trying to do is unpack some of that to connect it with the experience of physical pain in the body, which can show up… Trauma can show up in a lot of different ways. In both my experience, we’ve had conversations offline about different ways that it shows up, so is there… Can you connect the dots in working with clients, how their experience of this trauma, this experience of this elevated sympathetic nervous system state that tends to spike higher and then drop down to even a higher level baseline, and it was before. How does it connect with physical pain?

0:09:38.6 S2: Sure, so it depends on person’s expectations, so this is where people have to really become conscious if they wanna change, if they want to improve, if they wanna get better, they have to become really aware of their attitudes, their patterns, and that’s such a big concept, their patterns or habits of thought, and how that creates their expectations. So if a person is experiencing physical pain from an injury, let’s just say a knee injury, what is their expectation of recovery, what is their expectation or their interpretation of the significance of this? Does a person look at this as, Oh, another horrible thing in my life, great, this is such crap, like this pissing on me, or is it… That sucked, but I know other people that have experienced it. They’ve gotten through it, I’ll get through it too. And they go about looking for things in their life to be happy about, or do they get sucked into the shell of rumination and commiserate about how badly their life has been affected by this knee injury, now focused on recovery, they’re focused on their suffering.

0:11:07.5 S1: Right. Now, I will, I can speak for personal experience about knee injuries, after my fourth one, the need dislocations that I had.

0:11:19.0 S2: Did you ever ask yourself if what you were doing wrong…

0:11:22.3 S1: After the fourth one I started, there was a little bit of a disconnect, so I did have that experience in the first three, that life was pissing on me, like I had that experience of poor me. Why is it always happening? Oh, I’ll heal. Ignoring it, I had a very healthy dysfunctional ego at that point in time. Very healthy, dysfunctional Lego. How would you… Healthy desert was not serving me. How about that? I’m messing with you. Yeah, okay. So there is this place that once I got on the other side of the fourth dislocation and it’s like I’m gonna start taking steps to resolve this, then I went to the doctor then and get the surgery then and went to physical therapy, so there was actually steps that I could take towards healing what was going on with that knee… I see a lot of people in that experience get stuck in different stages of that they have the injury, they don’t wanna go to the doctor, so they never go to the doctor. They go to the doctor and the doctor tells them what they don’t wanna hear, and then they stop there, they get the surgery, and the surgery isn’t like what turned out how they wanted on the other side of the surgery, and then they stop there, and then there’s an expectation in there that, this is as good as it’s gonna get.

0:13:04.0 S1: I’m gonna have arthritis in another five to 10 years, my joints gonna degenerate, I’m just gonna have to have a knee replacement, so it’s like in that spectrum from the injury to… I’m just facing down a knee replacement, I don’t have any other options. There’s a lot in there. There’s.

0:13:23.7 S2: A ton, there’s a ton, and you hit on so many things that I talked about with clients, whether we’re talking about actual physical pain or emotional pain or the suffering, but there’s the part of the expectation, but after your third one… And then you have the fourth one, you changed your outlook, changed, you decided to do something different, and you started thinking about your future, not based on your past experience, but on what you wanted to have happen, you wanted to have recovery, you wanted to feel better. You weren’t thinking about, Well, crap, I’ve been through this three times, this is just gonna happen again. This is the way it’s gonna be. I don’t know why I keep hitting myself in the knee of the hammer, that kind of thing… You changed your mindset, and that is such a difficult thing for so many people to do, because I talk with people about what you want your future to look like, what do you want, what outcomes… But they’re thinking about… Often, they’re not even thinking about… They’re just running on auto pilot. They’re running out of habit, and they project a future based on what they’ve already experienced in the past, and more often than not, that’s extremely negative, and find people that have doubts about their own abilities, doubts about what’s gonna happen, and you have people who doubt what they can do with their pain, they don’t take a positive ownership, empowered position, they take one of…

0:15:19.6 S2: Well, it’s hurt in the past, it hurts, now it’s gonna hurt. I see other people who have done this and now they’re triplet, those people didn’t wanna break out of their comfort zones.

0:15:33.3 S1: Is the AI see trauma playing a huge role in that? Trauma, I see. It’s like a skip in the record, so to speak. It brings them back to that place of, Well, it’s always gonna be the same. Mine always hurts. It’s never gonna change. So there’s an element, and this is really what I wanna connect the dots in the title of our podcast today, is how the pain isn’t all in your head, that there is a physical component that’s going on the knee injury… Yes, there’s a huge mental component that’s going on that is bringing them back to that physical experience, not allowing it to change it, so when you make that comment and it brings them back, that brings them back to that place of doubt or negative thinking, that’s what I call the uncomfortable comfort zone.

0:16:34.1 S2: And how trauma relates to that… Well, you have to also understand that we’re distinguishing trauma now much differently than we did even 20 years ago, we think of trauma as these big, huge events, like a person and combat seeing their comrades guy and I was dying themselves, or the brutal brutality of an abusive partner or parents or things like that, and those are what we would call the big teams, the big T trauma, we’re also identifying things as not as little tea tramway been thought, not what would have been thought of as trauma that are still very traumatic. That makes any sense? The chronic cumulative things rather than the huge spikes. So those impact on our nervous systems in a very unique way, and I’m gonna get a little long-winded here.

0:17:41.3 S1: There’s a lot… That’s very nuanced. It’s not a cut and dry thing. So I’ll bring it back.

0:17:48.7 S2: Thank you. If you take a person who had a great and wonderful day, the sun was shining, the coffee was just right, they went to work, they got compliments from their boss, everybody was cheerful, and then at the end of the day, they got that one nasty email or that one nasty text message or that one nasty comment from a person more often than not, after they go home after dinner, all this kind of stuff, and they’re laying in bed trying to go to sleep, what are they thinking about? They’re not thinking about how grateful and they are for their wonderful day, they’re thinking about that snarky text message or the comment, Well, why do we do that? Well, traumatic things impact our nervous systems in a very unique way, and we tend to remember and recall those things much more often than we do the positive things, and that is a good thing in a way, because it’s part of our survival mechanism, it kept us alive. Generations and generation back when we were dealing with things in our environment that could potentially kill us, it’s important to be aware of and alert and to remember the things that are dangerous so that we can avoid them in the future.

0:19:11.6 S2: And to be on the look out, but we still have… So society has changed incredibly in the last 5000 years, we don’t have those levels of lethality in our own environment anymore, but in such a short period of time, our nervous systems and adapted to that, so we’re still getting alarm bells being set off where our minds and our memories are being recall as you set or brought back to that place of concern and worry and doubt, it’s the fight or flight, and when a person retracts and goes back to that place of limited thinking, that is fear, which is the product of traumatic experience.

0:20:05.6 S1: How does this tie in? And I don’t wanna get too far in that direction of the trauma ’cause it actually kind of suck in and work with clients that have a lot of that, and it’s like, Oh, it’s going a little nutty, but how can we bring it back to the person sitting in front of the doctor with their knee issue, nothing’s shown up on an X-ray, a CT scan and MRI, and the doctor is telling them, it’s all in your head. Have Hythe re-experiencing physical pain, but nothing physically is showing up in the knee, the doctor’s telling them, You know, I could give you a cortisone shot or give you a prescription drugs or something like that. Where do they go from there? They know they feel physical pain, how do they take this concept of trauma, what you’re sharing, the bringing the brain, bringing the body back to that place of pain, what can they begin doing to kinda get a hold of that, to recognize that… Well, part of it may be in your head, but part of it is in the physical body as well.

0:21:24.0 S2: Yeah, well, that’s a tough one because I would ask, what is the nature of the health care provider that they’re seeing? What is the perspective of the doctor? Is this an orthopedist? Is this a general practitioner? Is this neurologist? Is this physical therapist… What kind of… When you say imaging, what kind of imaging are they talking about… There’s nothing physically wrong in the name… Well, if there’s physical pain there… I would say that there probably is, there’s definitely the possibility of experiencing physical pain strictly because of a mental association, but if you’ve got a physical issue, is it strictly inflammation which is causing pressure on nerves, is it a small tear and let’s say a meniscus or something, like that, that might show up on some things, we wouldn’t show up on others, but they’re painful, I’ve had them torments from skin. So how does that relate to the perception of a physical pain and studies are shown, and I know from an experience with working with people that if you give them a Likert type survey, rate your pain on a scale of one to five. One being no pain at all and five being like burning hell, a person will rate higher when they’re feeling depressed, when they’re feeling anxious, when they are remembering past events which are particularly negative, when a person is thinking positive and feeling hopeful about things, they ran…

0:23:28.0 S2: Almost the same pain, but in a much lesser degree.

0:23:34.3 S1: And it brings up an interesting piece, ’cause many times clients, I’ll talk to them today, today’s Wednesday, they’ll be out of pain. I’ll give them work to do. They’ll be out of pain, and then something happens Thursday, Friday, Saturday, something like that, that puts them back into pain, they went on a hike, they worked on a job or something like that, where they pushed their knee too far, and then their knee goes back into pain, and I see that trauma popping up, they’re like, Oh, nothing’s different, everything is the same. It’s, the world is ending. It’s almost like as if that experience of the relief that they got in this Wednesday, Thursday, it was a lot. It didn’t even happen. Right, it was a lie. And there isn’t that awareness on that person’s part to bring back to the point where they were out of pain and then paying started again, right in that space. Right in that window. There’s so much to be learned.

0:24:54.6 S2: Yeah, I tell people, and you just got me thinking on it a couple of different levels, but I tell people that suffer with panic and they’re like, it was horrible the day that I came to see you, then it was better for two days, but then it came back… And I had a panic attack on Friday, and I’m like, So you’re telling me, you know, and yeah, they’re focused on the panic attack and you’re like, It’s not getting any better, and like, Well, you visited me one, and you’re telling me you had two full days without panic, how many days re-panic free before you came to see me, and it was weeks with a panic a system, but not only the perception of pain, but is the mind, the brain create circumstances that actually cause pain, and I think that’s definitely… Absolutely true. When a person is depressed and feeling negative inflammation in the body increases, this is a trauma response, this is a protective thing, the body swells like in a very minor… Almost imperceptible way. But it’s still inflammation. It’s covering things. But this creates pain. We know that when a person is anxious, depressed, under a lot of stress, their white blood cells count goes down, their immunity becomes a weekend what a person is thinking, what person is feeling absolutely has physical…

0:26:43.2 S2: Absolutely. Physical effects on the body. It’s not just… All in your head. You’re not imagining this. Sure, the body is… The mind is influencing the body in my area, and what I’m very interested, whether it be emotional and the mind-body connection, I don’t distinguish between, Oh, this is a physical issue and this is just a mental issue, if the mind can affect the body in the negative ways, how can we tap into how positive thinking, positive thoughts, visualization practices and things like that can create the positive environment for the body to decrease inflammation, decrease swelling, increase Amen response and create the environment for our actual physical healing is not just… That imagine perception.

0:27:48.9 S1: Right? What do you believe is that piece… In that spot where the recognition, the mind affects the body, the body has the potential to affect the mind, whether a person allows the physical body to affect the mind, I think is a different story. Right. I’ve narrowed down to courage like that, that is when I was looking at… And I’ve been in the bids of helping people with knee pain for 20 some years now, and there’s this place where I see people give up so easily, it’s almost like they don’t have the courage to let go of the experience of the physical pain to begin to discipline themselves to look for where like you would say, That person didn’t have a panic attack for two days and they’ve had them for a week, and now they’re gonna go right back to that dark place that they were in… That’s how comfortable. Comfort zone, yeah. How do you make it? I don’t know if it’s a palatable thing, ’cause some people need to make it a palatable way of people to get out of pain or let go of that belief system, some people need… I tell my clients all the time, sometimes you need me as a cheerleader, sometimes you need me as a drill sergeant, and depending on where they’re at or how they’re showing up for the support that they need will depend on what I might say.

0:29:33.4 S1: So how do you work with clients to make it palatable for them, to break it down into baby steps, so that person that had two days relief from the panic attacks and now they’re ready to give up on working with you…

0:29:50.3 S2: Wow, that’s a big question, man. No, that’s cool, because we could turn this into a four-hour long time… Yes, and I think we should. I got nothing else to do today. So many points, and this kinda goes into that realm of one of the paradigms I practice from, which is NLP, you’re near linguistic programming, which looks at what are the… On Gosh, what are the patterns that brain uses to interpret information and how do we communicate not just with other people, but communicate with ourselves the mental pictures that we create in our head, the sounds that we hear, and the feelings that we have, these input systems of information, visual, auditory and kinesthetic and things like that, but… You said courage. And that’s a great word. It does take courage. And people are like, Well, how do I get the courage? And one of the things I ask people, when I start working with them is like, what are three or four characteristics? Personality traits that you would like to develop, you don’t feel you have enough of them, and what would you like to have more of? And without a doubt, nine times out of 10 people say confidence and I wanna be more confident, I don’t wanna be a confident person, this speaks volumes and that directly related to that courage that you’re talking about, you can’t be courageous without confidence, and that shows also the role of fear is the thing that they’re asking for is confidence, it really indicates that the biggest problem in their lives is fear-related even though they don’t recognize.

0:32:06.6 S1: It. How do you get the confidence without the courage to go through the fear to get there.

0:32:13.5 S2: Right. Awareness and like you say, baby steps, very small, easily digestible things, so there’s a model for stress, stress is a natural part of life, which is necessary if we didn’t experience stress and everything was hunky-dory and just fine… We wouldn’t be motivated to do anything. Create anything. Change anything, build anything. So stress is a normal, natural thing, but we’re getting to this weird, weird place in our society where we wanna reduce stress so much and we don’t wanna be uncomfortable and we just wanna be… We don’t see the value of having any kind of adversity or stress in our lives, so whenever we experience it, we wanna run away from it, but we say a Challenger, you have a stressor, and the number one determinant in how successful we are in meeting the stress and conquering it or dealing with it in a healthy way is attitude, so if we have a stressor and we’re going up on this level of stress, if we believe… And like you said, courage, I use the word hope as a person to have hope or belief in themselves, do they believe that there are resources, their supports enable them to meet this stressor and be successful in dealing with it, then we call that good stress or actually there’s a term you stress, like you for it, you stress, but on the opposite side, going down, if we have a stressor and we don’t believe in our capacity to deal with it, we don’t believe in our strengths and we feel negatively about it, then that it becomes distress, and here comes to the fight or flight response, again, on the positive side, we have this fight motivation, we wanna meet the challenge, we want to overcome it, and we’re motivated to move towards it on the negative side, if we don’t believe in our resources and it’s distrustful, we wanna flee from it and detract from it, so that’s the role of the uncomfortable comfort zone.

0:34:45.4 S2: And why do I say uncomfortable comfort zone? It’s these situations, like you were describing, a person immense, their situation, they hate it, they don’t like it, they want it to be different, but they don’t take the steps necessary to get out of it because the unknown dealing with it in different ways than they have in the past, putting in the effort is scary, so it’s easier to stay in this cocoon of apathy and suffering than to take the risk of creating change, and that’s where you find that other symptoms that we just talked about, somebody experiences some positive progress, but then there’s a little set back and it’s like, Oh well, there’s the confirmation that I was looking for that none of this is gonna work, this is all crap. Right, so let’s just get the surgery, let’s take the pill rather than doing the work, so it’s a confirmation of their negative thinking whenever they feel that stress, the person has to develop the mental practice of projecting into their future… This is the NLP part, called Future Pacing. What is my automate outcome gonna look like, feel like sound like? What is it gonna be like? What am I gonna be like when I’ve achieved my goal? And to also understand the process so that when they hit those road bumps and experience that pain, they don’t immediately go, Oh, well, yeah, there it is, I proved it to myself is it doesn’t work.

0:36:50.6 S2: And they just go back to this place of apathy and being where they were before, this uncomfortable comfort zone.

0:36:58.1 S1: Is it the discipline of overriding the sympathetic nervous systems looking for the bad stuff and begin to develop the discipline to start looking for aware that outcome that they wanna create is beginning to show up. Like I did have two days worth of relief when I had three weeks worth of panic attacks, now I had two days worth of relief, focusing on those two days and seeing how they can re-achieve another two days as opposed to looking at the previous three weeks.

0:37:32.9 S2: I think discipline is a good word, but I think discipline is a word that people look at kind of in the wrong way, they think of it as like this grit your teeth and just by pure will power muscle and through something, I get to the other side and I see it as a more subtle thing that you make a conscious mindful commitment to, and that you have to be aware throughout the process of that negative thinking, This is where mindfulness Reframing from NLP, future pacing from NLP visualization practices come into play because it’s so easy to get out of. Mindfulness. Okay, we have a negative experience. I’ll cut you off and.

0:38:30.7 S1: Not…

0:38:31.2 S2: Okay, if you have a negative experience and we’ve been thinking negatively about it for a long time, we’re already practiced in that, we don’t need to sit down and think, Okay, I am gonna dig up that seeing that experience and then did work.

0:38:48.9 S1: The things that didn’t work.

0:38:51.1 S2: I’m gonna dig up that experience and go, I need to get that feeling of pessimism back, and I need to… I need to feel crappy about it.

0:39:01.4 S1: Right now, we don’t have to practice it…

0:39:03.2 S2: Sure, we’ve already been doing that, so it’s not an unconscious habit of thought to change that around a flat around Utrecht actually does take practice. We have to consciously think greater than our environment that we’ve created with our previous experience in our previous patterns of thought, we have to think outside that box that we created for ourselves, and that takes discipline, that takes the conscious practice, so that’s why I think that’s a good word. Discipline and disciple. A disciple has made the commitment to follow that path.

0:39:48.0 S1: Right? Now, you put together a practice, like what you walk your clients through when you work with them, the NP, it was… It’s exactly what you’re talking about. This is actually a good segue to what we’re going to include in the bonus section after the podcast. Could you speak a little bit to that? Would you call it a meditation, how would you… It’s a guided guided imagery or guided in meditation is basically… I describe it to clients is a stress reduction method, but it’s a guided imagery, some people say Is this hypnosis and not exactly, but what is in hypnosis? If you keep your mind focused on something for a period of time, you’re basically being hit or mesmerized by it.

0:40:53.9 S2: But it’s a progressive relaxation through using breathing, some imagery, the idea of counting down levels to a deeper healthier, more calm and relaxed state of mind, getting to that place of being in the parasympathetic nervous system. And then setting an intention, what is it that I want to have happen? What do I want to achieve? What do I want to feel like? I use it with clients and behavioral responses, the client comes in and says, I blew up at my family member got really upset, send some things that cause a lot of regret, and I feel like crap, like, Okay, well, let’s get down to this level of mind to be mindful of it, let’s create a mental image of what you wanna act like, sound like feel like be in a similar situation in the future. And when those stimuli, The circumstances show up again in the future, they’re already primed for their optimal behavior, not their less optimal or negative behavior, they’ve already planned it in their heads that I’m gonna have that moment of pause and respond rather than react.

0:42:25.6 S1: And this is what they could do for any situation, which you be including pain, be a knee pain or back pain, neck pain, shoulder pain, whatever that pain is, this guided imagery that will be in the bonus section is something that they can walk through and begin to… Program their mind a little bit to look for how that outcome that they want…

0:42:52.8 S2: If I had a client that, let’s say high school football player, and he got clipped and… Or his ACL, and he’s had surgery, and I was walking on crutches and got the brace and all that stuff, and he steps off of her and feels a Twin, a pan, and he just comes in and goes, Oh God, you know, I stepped off the curve the other day, and it just hurt so damn bad and I just, I just feel absolutely defeated, like This is never gonna work for me, I don’t know if I re-injured myself, I just… I’m so pissed. Okay, so you had an experience and that pain triggered a response from you, which is like jumping up to eight… And you don’t wanna react that way. Okay, let’s look at that situation, let’s count this down through this process, these levels of mind and get to a place of, Okay, now in the future, when you feel a similar twin, a pain, how do you wanna respond versus how you reacted in the past, how do you wanna feel about it, how do you want… Do you wanna be composed, do you want to have a better sense of keeping things in perspective and that understanding that this is part of the process.

0:44:19.2 S2: Also, this is part of the process, and when that happens and people come back and say, Yeah, I had a similar experience, but I was calmer about it, I wasn’t so worried about it, and you know what, I would have thought it would have actually hurt more because it was more of a twist on the line, but it didn’t… It didn’t hurt as much. That’s what I would expect to see based on my experience.

0:44:43.1 S1: Yeah, that’s great. I think that’s the direction that we’re pointing the listeners of the call that we can begin to course correct a little bit, and I think that guided imagery that we’re gonna have in the bonus section is gonna be a great place for them to start. Is there… We’re gonna wrap up the show here. Just in a few TV been 10 minutes. I know, but I do like your idea about coming back and talking more deeply about other topics, because I think that this is a rich environment where people get stuck in terms of experiencing physical pain in the body, but is there anything else you’d like to tie up to share for listeners.

0:45:38.0 S2: I would suggest that people who are experiencing physical pain, try to take a serious look at your relationship to that pain, is that keeping you limited? Are you feeling defeated by it, are you not doing things that you could do, honestly… Of course, physical pain creates limitations, but are you also avoiding things that you could do out of fear? It’s gonna sound weird, but it works. If a person can develop the mental mindset that everything that happens to them, including what they perceive as a negative or painful, if everything that happens to them is somehow for their benefit, it might be a challenge to find out what that benefit is, but if you have that mindset. You will ask that question, how is this for my benefit? How can I grow from this? What can I learn from this? You’ll start finding those answers because people usually find what they’re looking… So sometimes if we’re looking for excuses, we find excuses, if we look for answers, will typically find answers. Right.

0:47:12.6 S1: Yeah, that’s great, that’s a great way to end it. There’s no section of pain, and then there’s the suffering of pain. Sure. Lord, thank you so much. Do you have a website you’d like to share with us where people can get in touch with you? Sure, I am at Loeb dot com, that’s L-L-O-Y-D-R-O-B-R-E-C-H-T dot com, or email. We’ll have all of this in the show notes to your email and everything else is on your website. Sure, okay, great. Then we’ll… I’ll make sure all of that is in the show notes and send them over to your website… Loy, thank you so much. This is fine if you… Bill, appreciate it very much. This is Bill Parravano, the knee pain guru on behalf of the Comella Foundation. Have a great day and we will see you on the next one.